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Post by celtics543 on Jan 19, 2016 6:59:33 GMT -5
On Bret Hart's DVD when he's talking about wrestlers that have died, I was very surprised at his tears for Rick Rude. I don't know if they were close, but I didn't expect him to well up like he did. I think that not only were they friends, but Bret had a lot of good things to say about Rude in his book. I think Rude was a guy that Bret really looked up to even though Bret was actually a little older, Rick was a guy that Bret found admirable. Also, I think he gets so emotional because Rude walked out of the WWF in 1997 right after the Screwjob in support of Bret and I don't think Bret took that lightly.
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Post by celtics543 on Jan 19, 2016 6:39:11 GMT -5
I used to love Jericho when it was 2000 and I was 12 years old...at this point he needs to change his character. I thought they were going for a character where he was trying too hard to be cool still and that was going to play off into a heel, sort of like 1994 Bob Backlund when he realized fans didn't like him as the All American Boy anymore so he snapped and became crazy Mr. Backlund. That's where I hope they're going with Chris.
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Post by celtics543 on Jan 15, 2016 6:48:46 GMT -5
the man is the pits, he has never been a good worke or a great talker, the only good matches he has ever had were against guys who carried most of the work. It angered me a lot when he destroyed mick foley in the hell in the cell and no hold barred matches, as to say he is the king of hardcore and how much better and tougher he is then foley. Probably the most selfish wrestler next to Hulk Hogan in history in my book. I disagree with you here. Hogan drew LOTS of money in his career. Even if he was selfish and overstayed his welcome he still drew WAY MORE money than HHH ever thought of drawing. And for the most part, guys from the 80's WWF speak pretty highly of Hogan because they knew if they were on his card they were going to make good money. No one speaks about HHH that way. When HHH was selfish it caused ratings to go down and no one made money, at least Hulk was drawing big numbers. By the time WCW went down the toilet, Hulk was pretty much out of the company, so I don't think you can blame him as much for the downfall although he certainly didn't help and didn't put enough guys over. HHH would've buried Goldberg though, so at least Hulk put someone over huge.
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Post by celtics543 on Jan 14, 2016 6:38:52 GMT -5
That would be the smartest decision because they need that crowd. No other crowd is going to pop for four guys who they don't know. AJ Styles would get a reaction and Doc might get a cheer because some people recognize him as Luke Gallows or Festus but let's not pretend that it's Benoit/Malenko/Guerrero/Saturn coming in. Four of the top WCW stars during the hottest period in wrestling got a huge pop, and really that might have been little underwhelming considering Benoit was the champion when he left. Four guys form NJPW, who's only major exposure in the United States has been TNA or low card WWE aren't getting a huge pop from most crowds.
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Post by celtics543 on Jan 10, 2016 20:07:33 GMT -5
The biggest Wrestlemania of all time and there's really only one guy that I can see headlining...Vince McMahon. Maybe he wants to a posthumous inductee like his dad was but Vince obviously deserves to go in and what better time than at the biggest Wrestlemania of all time. This is Vince's baby and having 100k people in attendance will set all attendance records for the company. Vince deserves the moment.
I guess I'd go
Vince Sting Freebirds Vader Paul Boesch Sable Andy Kauffman
It has a headliner, two top stars of the 90's, a former Texas promoter, the obvious Freebird induction, a diva, and the best celebrity involved with wrestling.
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Post by celtics543 on Jan 8, 2016 10:15:18 GMT -5
I think reasonably this would be my card:
WWE Championship Match: Roman vs HHH
Grudge Match: Rock vs Brock w/Stone Cold as special ref
Double Retirement Match: Daniel Bryan vs Undertaker (Assuming Bryan can't go anymore)
Flag Match: Rusev vs Jack Swagger w/Kurt Angle (Unless Kurt can wrestle, then have Rusev attack Swagger before the match and make it an open challenge that Kurt answers)
IC and US Title Match: Ambrose vs Jericho vs Owens vs Del Rio vs Ziggler (Two falls, 1st fall wins US, 2nd wins IC)
NXT Title Match: Balor vs Joe vs Corbin
Four Way Tag Title Match: Usos vs New Day vs Big Show/Kane vs Lucha Dragons
Hardcore Tag Match: Wyatt Family vs Cactus Jack/Dudley Boyz/RVD
Divas Title: Charlotte vs Bayley
PRESHOW: Andre the Giant Memorial Battle Royal
Gimmick Battle Royal
I think this gets everyone on the card, obviously some problems here and there but they need to draw 100k people and this might get it done. I'd probably also try to include HBK, Bret, and some other legends in backstage segments. Might have too many matches but some of them I don't anticipate being long 20 minute matches. Looking at the older Wrestlemanias, most of the matches were short other than the actual main events. I'm not envisioning much time being given to many of them and even some of the upper matches don't need to be that long. Taker can't go that long anymore, HHH hasn't had a match in a while, Rock got blown up in his matches with Cena, so those don't have to be epically long, just long enough. It also doesn't account for the NJPW guys that are apparently incoming and the NXT match might be better off on the preshow or not on the show at all. Combining the US and IC titles wasn't my first thought but they did it with Kurt/Jericho/Benoit with the IC and Euro titles at one point and I needed to fit more guys on the card but couldn't keep adding matches.
Even with the injuries it's tough to get everyone a spot who deserves one.
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Post by celtics543 on Jan 8, 2016 8:04:00 GMT -5
The point of pro wrestling is to make it LOOK like you're hurting someone without actually hurting them. Bret Hart mentions this in his book when he talks about the lunacy of guys doing knife edge chops and how they actually hurt. Are the marks in the crowd or in the ring?
I know the Attitude Era was crash style tv but the matches were probably easier on the body. They would go crazy a few times a year with some death defying stunt through a table or off a ladder but the week to week matches were usually no more than 5 minutes and didn't really consist of huge bumps. Today week to week guys are wrestling much longer matches and upping the danger factor to heights we haven't really seen before. Unfortunately people are getting hurt but it's not a huge surprise.
The main problem is that in the Attitude era everyone cared about the character and the storyline, the actual wrestling actually wasn't as important because the story and characters was strong enough to drive everything, whereas now the wrestling is driving everything because characters and story are both weak. At this point we have several guys whose character is that they are a good wrestler, forcing them to wrestle long matches every week to keep the character going. Fifteen years ago we had a wrestling pimp fighting a wrestling porn star in a five minute match of basic moves that crowds were going crazy for.
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Post by celtics543 on Jan 7, 2016 8:10:37 GMT -5
I was thinking about this and because of the Cena injury I think I'd go
Undertaker/Bryan in a double retirement match
Brock/Rock w/Austin as special ref in a grudge match
Obviously not the best situation but those both seem like matches that would draw.
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Post by celtics543 on Jan 7, 2016 8:01:45 GMT -5
This is unfortunate for John and the WWE. I'm sick of the guys character but you hate seeing a guy get hurt, especially around the time of the biggest show of the year. He will obviously still make an appearance in some capacity but he usually delivers a pretty good match at Mania, so this is a disappointment.
The problem now is that they don't have time to build up anyone new in three months that is going to be able to fill a 100k seat stadium. You have Roman and Dean who could conceivably main event. Then you have Owens, Wyatts, Del Rio, Sheamus, Rusev, Ziggler, and the New Day who are all solid supporting stars. They're going to have to pay someone to come in and work as a part timer to fill the stadium.
The best would be if Vince and the Authority came out on Monday and gave a speech similar to the one Vince gave way back in 1997 when he admitted that the WWF had to change. Tell us that and then forget Stardust and let him be Cody again, leave several of the silly gimmicks behind and let the guys be themselves and speak for themselves. Then give the guys 3 months to get themselves over.
Since we all know that's not happening let's look at who could possibly be brought back for Wrestlemania. Rock, Brock, Undertaker, Bryan, Punk, Austin, HBK, Hogan, HHH, Angle, Jericho, RVD, Foley, Batista, and Bret.
Obviously not all of the above could wrestle a match but they could all be used in some capacity to make it a bigger deal. Punk is probably the most unlikely of all of them to be a part because of the serious bad blood between the two but he could work a great match if they could get over that. Personally here's how my Mania card would look with all the recent injuries.
World Title: Reigns vs HHH Double Retirement Match: Undertaker vs Daniel Bryan IC Title Match: Ambrose vs Jericho vs Owens Grudge Match: Rock vs Brock w/special referee Steve Austin Hardcore Match: Wyatt Family vs Cactus Jack, Dudley Boyz, RVD US Title Match: Del Rio vs Ziggler NXT Title Match: Finn Balor vs Samoa Joe Four Corners Tag Title Match: New Day vs Usos vs Big Show/Kane vs Lucha Dragons Flag Match: Rusev vs Swagger w/Kurt Angle (If Kurt can go then a Rusev open challenge answered by Angle) Andre the Giant Memorial Battle Royal featuring: Miz, Ryder, Sandow, Job Squad 2016, Fandango, etc. PRESHOW: Gimmick Battle Royal: Attitude era gimmicks like Val Venis, Vader, Headbangers, Henry Godwin etc.
Kind of a long card but they have the talent to pull off a good show even with all the injuries. I didn't account for any of the NJPW guys that apparently are incoming and really didn't have much of an NXT presence other than the one match for the title. I tried to use the older guys in more of a supporting presence as much as possible because I don't want a ton of older guys on the card taking time away from the guys that need to be built up. You can also pencil in a backstage segment or two that could work in the other older guys I left off the card like Bret, and whoever goes into the hall of fame.
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Post by celtics543 on Jan 6, 2016 7:06:59 GMT -5
If he's going to be full time I'd take Jericho back in a heart beat. Hopefully not the Y2J character though, it's a nicknamed based on the Y2K crisis and that hasn't been a concern in over 16 years now, my high school students had never even heard of it. The Y2J nonsense has to go and he needs to reinvent himself, either as another form of SRS Jericho or some other gimmick. I personally think he could play a heel who thinks he's still the cool 25 year old guy he was way back in the day, it seems to pretty much be his personality anyways.
This thread is funny though, half of you guy say that beating Jericho means nothing because he puts everyone over and the other half are saying you don't want him back because he doesn't put the young guys over. It can't be both ways. The guy put Fandango over in the middle of the ring at Wrestlemania, think about that for a second, Fandango can't even get into Heath Slater's JOB squad at this point in his career and a few years ago he went over the former Undisputed Champion at the biggest show of the year. Jericho will put guys over.
A full time return would also allow stories to be built around him so maybe he has an angle with Neville where he beats Neville a bunch of times using his veteran knowledge and cheating to get it done and then Neville eventually learns some things from Jericho and uses it against him. It's a simple angle but it gets Neville over and it gives Jericho some credibility. The guy had his legs cut out from under him for almost his entire prime, whether in WCW or WWF/E, and he's still not that old. If Jericho can give you two good years, I think you take them.
Also keep this in mind, Jericho is a really proud guy. When he came back in 2007 he realized that the rockstar character wasn't over anymore and changed it up. Is he really going to come in and do a half-assed nostalgia act that isn't over if he's going to be full time? Jericho is really in tune with his response from the audience and I don't think silence will sit well with him, he's going to change it up until he gets over again, he's done it before. If you really want to put him in the tag ranks with either Big Show or Miz, both are doing pretty much nothing right now.
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Post by celtics543 on Jan 5, 2016 7:47:08 GMT -5
Answering the question for real I think he started to get behind him after Wrestlemania 11. Shawn lost in the main event but I think that next night he started getting built for the big win at Wrestlemania 12 and Vince finally got behind him all the way.
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Post by celtics543 on Jan 5, 2016 6:47:15 GMT -5
This will never not be infuriating. What happened to Zack Ryder was an absolute travesty. Here was a dude who, while not the best wrestler in the world, did exactly what Vince, HHH, and all the other "old guard" guys have been saying for years. "Don't wait for an opportunity to be handed to you; MAKE your opportunity." He built up his own fanbase through unconventional means. He got himself over with the live crowds (read: paying customers) and pimped his own merchandise through his pioneering use of social media. And it WORKED. The crowds were hot as hell for him. They chanted "WE WANT RYDER" at THE ROCK. His run at (not with, sadly) the US Title made that belt more relevant than anything John Cena has done with it. And what did WWE do to reward all of the hard work he put in to getting himself over (and making THEM a hell of a lot of money)? They did WORSE than firing him. At least if they'd fired him, he could have done his thing in Ring of Honor (or even TNA). His "self-made" bit would have gone over SUPER well in smaller promotions. But instead, they tried (and failed) to use his heat to get over the John Cena/Kane feud. And, in the process, utterly destroyed one of their own Divas along with starting John Cena down the "unlikable prick" road. They humiliated the guy over and over again and ultimately just dropped him from the shows. First mid-carder that the company could have legitimately done something exciting with IN the mid-card and they threw him under a bus. Paul Heyman built a wrestling promotion around "hiding the flaws and spotlighting the positives". WWE did the exact opposite and they did it seemingly out of nothing more than spite, because he got over (in such a way that the fans demanded to see him) at a time they wanted to push others instead. Rather than altering their plans, they didn't just bury Ryder, they ground him into the dirt with their heels and then salted the earth so that nothing could ever grow again. Having learned NOTHING from that, they tried to do the same damn thing to Daniel Bryan, a guy who singlehandedly went on to make Wrestlemania 30 go from "meh" to "can't miss". WWE has produced so many Attitude Era and Monday Night War programs, so it's amazing to me that they can so utterly miss not only what WCW did wrong, but what WWE did RIGHT. Attitude Era WWE listened to the fans. "Hey, the crowd is booing the hell out of our blue-chippin' babyface...maybe turn him heel?" "This Stone Cold guy is really building steam, let's see where this goes." "That one-eared weirdo has some interesting ideas, maybe give him a platform to try 'em out?" "Our audience has grown tired of the superhero good-guy. How about an anti-hero or two?" But even that's just lip service. All of that only happened because Vince didn't have any other choice. Hogan left. Macho left. Bret left. Everybody Vince wanted to be "the Babe Ruth of Wrestling" left. HBK got injured. Razor and Diesel left. HHH made the cardinal sin of saying goodbye to his friends, and thus had to get squashed BY WARRIOR instead of getting a push. If that hadn't happened, Rocky Maivia and The Ringmaster wouldn't have made it out of the midcard. Issac Yankem would be something that students kid Mr. Jacobs about in Kentucky. Could not agree more with this. Perfectly said and absolutely correct. Vince is a good business man in the sense that he knows how to make money from tv networks and he knows how to promote his product expertly. He is not the creative genius that he's credited with being and he really lucked into most of the things that got over huge in wrestling. Hogan was a huge star in Minnesota before Vince pushed him to the moon, and at the time was lucky that house shows drove the business because if Hogan had been on tv for as long as Cena has been then no one would want to see him anymore either. Vince hates to change, once he finds a guy he wants that to be the guy until the guy literally can't move anymore. If HBK wasn't hurt he would've never put Austin over, Rock wouldn't have gotten a push, and the attitude era would've been all about DX. I love Shawn Michaels as a performer but if he doesn't get hurt and leave the business for four years then the WWF goes out of business. Business wasn't picking up with him, the fans wanted Austin and I truly believe that 1998 Shawn Michaels would never have put Austin over unless he knew he was leaving for a while, and even then it apparently took the Undertaker threatening him to get it done. Much like Drew Bledsoe was a good qb for the Patriots but him getting hurt and opening the door for Tom Brady is one of the greatest things that's ever happened to the Pats, HBK getting hurt and opening the door for Steve Austin likely saved the WWF/E. Doesn't mean I wasn't a fan of both Bledsoe and HBK, just the facts about the situation. What we've gotten to now is Cena is the workhorse and top guy but every other top guy in history found somewhere else to go or got hurt eventually and had to leave, neither has happened to Cena yet. There isn't a WCW to throw a ton of money at him and bring him over like they could with Hogan, Nash, Hart, Savage, etc. That leads to everything getting stale.
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Post by celtics543 on Jan 5, 2016 6:25:46 GMT -5
I was in the Rumble thread when Cena made his return and I remember it being complete shock at first and then a lot of people wondering if he came back way too early. Remember, he had torn his pec not that long before and they originally had him out for much longer. That comeback was a complete surprise to everyone in the thread and was generally well received as at least a shocking moment before everyone came back to earth and remembered to not like the guy. Sort of how MSG reacted really.
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Post by celtics543 on Jan 4, 2016 10:45:28 GMT -5
The Owen one was the worst simply because there's no excuse for it. Both were in the mid card at the time, only Owen was super hot after the screw job and getting a big win over HHH would've been a huge moment. Owen vs DX in general was huge and I understand that the company was going with Austin as the world champion, and clearly it was the right move but Owen should've gotten that secondary title. HHH just never put the guy over at any point and it crushed all the momentum he had coming out of Montreal.
At least with the other ones the HHH character had been built up as the "king of kings" and legitimate world title contender. In 1998 when he was holding Owen down he was a lackey for HBK and really was mostly a lower card to mid card guy.
I'm not a big HHH hater, but he's not that entertaining and really doesn't deserve the spot he's in. He's been living off the feud with Mick Foley and that return pop at MSG for over a decade now. Everyone acts like he's on the Hogan/Austin/Rock level but really he's much more of Kane/Big Show/Nash/Hall level of guy. A serviceable title holder but not defining and era by any means.
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Post by celtics543 on Jan 3, 2016 9:52:49 GMT -5
The fact that he was a caddy, a cheerleader, and a guy whose gimmick was introducing himself to people, and he still ends his career with all those accomplishments is saying something. I mean the guy got thrown out of the royal rumble on year because he stopped to shake Kane's hand and introduce himself. He was Heath Slater for a while and got himself to the point of world champion.
Creative didn't do Dolph any favors, especially with his name, but he's still had a great career. He's a hall of famer in my book. Not a headliner but definitely someone who should get in.
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Post by celtics543 on Jan 2, 2016 20:00:05 GMT -5
He shouldn't. Imagine if he does and then he ends up on the wrong side of the WWE somehow in the future. 85 year old Ric Flair will have to win the title again to get Cena out of the record books.
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Post by celtics543 on Dec 30, 2015 23:22:40 GMT -5
Am I the only one that would've rather seen the rehash of the invasion over what actually happened? Having Bischoff come back with Goldberg and the other main event guys and talk about how the WWE beat the WCW jv team would be great. A legit invasion with Bischoff, Flair, DDP, Goldberg, Steiner, Nash, Hall, Hogan, Booker, and Sting would have been great. Throw in Paul E with RVD, Dreamer, Raven, Rhyno, Lance Storm, and Taz/Sabu/Sandman and we're talking about a legit fun invasion angle.
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Post by celtics543 on Dec 30, 2015 21:05:19 GMT -5
Damn it, old England got NXT. When will New England get NXT? We are the more recent of the two Englands. I thought the future was now! But you guys are a couple hundreds years old too. I think Vermont, Maine and New Hampshire should call themselves New New England, then we'd have #NXTBurlington. Woah Woah Woah...I think you mean #NXTPortland, Maine is clearly the best state of New New England.
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Post by celtics543 on Dec 30, 2015 20:17:29 GMT -5
I think they were but in hindsight they really only had to hold out until the Time Warner/AOL merger and then when WCW was squashed people would've gone back. If it became absolutely necessary they could've gone back to being a northeast promotion and only operated in that area. Despite the popularity of WCW, they never drew great in the northeast. When the merger happened and WCW went out of business, which I'm convinced would've still happened because people weren't going to watch their terrible show even if it was the only one in town, the WWF would've re-emerged.
I just have a hard time believing that Vince would've sold or closed up shop unless he was completely out of options.
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Post by celtics543 on Dec 30, 2015 20:05:41 GMT -5
Evil Vince worked so well in the Attitude Era because as a guy in his 50's Vince could work a match and get a true comeuppance. At 70, that simply can't happen anymore, he's not having a match with anyone at his age.
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